>> >> иг911 (ig911) писал(а) в ответ на сообщение:
>>> But growing up in USSR, I would not call a bottom, but close to the middle (for Uk standards) .
>> >> Not the bottom , but by far not middle class by UK standards. But I know what you mean - culturally - those of my generation who grew up in the USSR are lucky, as we got the best of the USSR - such was the timing . As it was a relatively rich period in the existence of the USSR especially end of 70s beginning of 80s - we had excellent education , etc. That is true. >>
>> иг911 (ig911) писал(а) в ответ на сообщение:
>>> Now days, social mobility depends more on what you have in your head, than what you have in your pockets.
>> >> Both go together. If one has the money, one can send their kids to a private school . Private school kids will always get better jobs - well, in this country and are very socially mobile. In fact, the statistics in the UK shows that by the time a kid gets to the secondary school age- those privately educated will have overtaken those educated in state schools by 7 years in terms of their knowledge and ability. So - if say you started as a builder, then were successful, opened your construction business, then started making enough money to send your kids to a private school - your kids will move up a class. That is just one example of social mobility here, but there's loads more. One just has to see the opportunities in life and try and make the best of them, not just rely on the State to sort everything out for you. >> Anyways, I am off to work.
> > I am not completely agree with you.
> Yes, in old school when the only path to success was career in business or politics, > Then, rich family and private school would definitely give you a leg up. > But now days, career in IT, medicine, Law - requires intellectuality and drive, this is were rich kids loose and children of poor immigrants win (in general).
Well, you are entitled to your opinion of course, but kids from well to do families and educated privately do the best in life- nothing to do with "old school " or "new school"- some things just stay the same. Where you immigrant with lots of drive might get a job in a firm as an IT consultant, some native kid from a rich family and out of private school and great uni will climb the professional ladder much quicker and is likely to become the CEO of the company where your poor intellectual immigrant with the drive works as IT support. It's class society here and in private schools kids are even taught to talk differently - they grow up to have posher accents,- one can tell them a mile off. They make friends for life at school as well, are part of "the network" . It is still class society here- that has not changed. And yeah - it is a capitalist society , where more money means more opportunities. But I don't want to argue about that, like I said - you are entitled to your opinion.
> поздравляю от всей души!!! > > ВЫ - наши Королевы!
And Fly 2004 Fly too!
20:12 08.03.2017
OlUS (OlUS) писал(а) в ответ на :
> > Присоединяюсь,Королевны-так сочнее)) > C праздником,женщины!!!
Thank you
21:19 08.03.2017
о, у меня седня насыщенный день был, ну как насыщенный- праздничный...
вчера планировали короче в кабак с женой в честь праздничка, а седня позвонила сестра моя родная младшая и ее мужик, мол приходите к нам, ну мы такие, ну ладно, чем бабки отдавать куда, мы лучше те же самые бабки в семью пустим, все равно бухать, пусть свои довольные лучше будут, но не тут то было...
вообщем фабула такая: есть у них сын, ему сча три года стукнуло причем именно 8-го марта, ну то есть мой племянник получается, ну мы ему с женой подарки купили, ну и в принципе на стол чего то там...
вообщем, приходим мы такие, ну честь по чести, здрасте- здрасте, за стол садимся, бухаем по тихому, все чин- чинарем, а я смотрю, шняга творится- племянник в три года уже к стакану с пивом тянется, а родители, ну сестра моя с мужиком её ему наливать давай, я говорю, я чет не понял, это сок чтоль такой детский, иль как, а они такие, да ладно, ну хочет, пусть пьет, у меня такая шторка упала на глаза, короче, племянника я отбузгал ( ну по детски, ясно), сестру отбузгал ( ну по братски, тоже понятно), мужик ее чет там попытался возбухнуть, но я ему разъяснил, что лучше не надо возбухать в моей семье, так и сказал- в моей семье, иначе это иначе для тебя мужик кончится, не, ну наливать в три года племяннику бокалами пива, я чет это не догнал краями...
вообщем потом, такой порядок стал за столом, все прям на "вы" к дядьке, ну то есть ко мне обращаться стали...
верь в добро.. и все будет хорошо... это тока что мне по телевизору по какому то каналу сказали, жена смотрит, пока я печатал, вот...
такое вот восьмое марта приключилось, я прям сам не ожидал...
>>> >>> иг911 (ig911) писал(а) в ответ на сообщение: >>>> But growing up in USSR, I would not call a bottom, but close to the middle (for Uk standards) . >>> >>> Not the bottom , but by far not middle class by UK standards. But I know what you mean - culturally - those of my generation who grew up in the USSR are lucky, as we got the best of the USSR - such was the timing . As it was a relatively rich period in the existence of the USSR especially end of 70s beginning of 80s - we had excellent education , etc. That is true. >>> >>> иг911 (ig911) писал(а) в ответ на сообщение: >>>> Now days, social mobility depends more on what you have in your head, than what you have in your pockets.
>>> >>> Both go together. If one has the money, one can send their kids to a private school . Private school kids will always get better jobs - well, in this country and are very socially mobile. In fact, the statistics in the UK shows that by the time a kid gets to the secondary school age- those privately educated will have overtaken those educated in state schools by 7 years in terms of their knowledge and ability. So - if say you started as a builder, then were successful, opened your construction business, then started making enough money to send your kids to a private school - your kids will move up a class. That is just one example of social mobility here, but there's loads more. One just has to see the opportunities in life and try and make the best of them, not just rely on the State to sort everything out for you. >>> Anyways, I am off to work.
>> >> I am not completely agree with you.
>> Yes, in old school when the only path to success was career in business or politics,
>> Then, rich family and private school would definitely give you a leg up. >> But now days, career in IT, medicine, Law - requires intellectuality and drive, this is were rich kids loose and children of poor immigrants win (in general).
>Well, you are entitled to your opinion of course, but kids from well to do families and educated privately do the best in life- nothing to do with "old school " or "new school"- some things just stay the same. Where you immigrant with lots of drive might get a job in a firm as an IT consultant, some native kid from a rich family and out of private school and great uni will climb the professional ladder much quicker and is likely to become the CEO of the company where your poor intellectual immigrant with the drive works as IT support. It's class society here and in private schools kids are even taught to talk differently - they grow up to have posher accents,- one can tell them a mile off. They make friends for life at school as well, are part of "the network" . It is still class society here- that has not changed. And yeah - it is a capitalist society , where more money means more opportunities. > But I don't want to argue about that, like I said - you are entitled to your opinion.
No, this is interesting what you did say. I've been working in large corporations for the last 15 years and I am not sure I am familiar with "posher accents". This is probably more of UK specific, and probably why you guys have low score in terms of social mobility :)
21:56 08.03.2017
Redhead, have a look at Silicon Valley billioners, would you find "posher accents" there?
22:11 08.03.2017
⍟ иг911 (ig911),
The fact that people educated privately have posh accents is common knowledge.
Now, I am not saying to you that everyone working for a multinational will have a posh accent. I am stating the opposite in fact. What I am trying to say to you - is that the elite is privately educated. I am sure it is the same in the States. And rich families with money don't tend to give birth to kids who end up loosing out to immigrants with intellect and drive.
Having money doesn't mean being stupid and uneducated, which is what you said. It is nonsense.
22:17 08.03.2017
иг911 (ig911) писал(а) в ответ на :
> Redhead, > have a look at Silicon Valley billioners, would you find "posher accents" there?
Self made billionaires who are "nouveau riche " probably don't have posh accents - but their kids will. Cause they will send their kids to some gorgeous private school in California or one of the New England States (i.e. NEw Hampshire, etc.) and they will go to Harvard. And yes, their accent won't be the same as that of the English Aristocracy - but it will be posh by American Standards - it won't be Jamaican "patois" for example or Texan drill. The point I was trying to make is that there is a lot of social mobility, but you just twisted everything. Never mind, whatever . Like I said - you are entitled to your own opinion.
> > ⍟ иг911 (ig911), > > The fact that people educated privately have posh accents is common knowledge. >
> Now, I am not saying to you that everyone working for a multinational will have a posh accent. I am stating the opposite in fact. What I am trying to say to you - is that the elite is privately educated. I am sure it is the same in the States. And rich families with money don't tend to give birth to kids who end up loosing out to immigrants with intellect and drive. > > Having money doesn't mean being stupid and uneducated, which is what you said. It is nonsense.
No, on this one I am totally disagree with you. Rich kids have much more chances to suffer from a depression and drug abuse. And in US, Ivy League Universities have 8/1 - students (kids) of foreign born parents, often immigrants.
Also, some of the highest scoring middle schools in New York - are public Chinese schools.
22:35 08.03.2017
иг911 (ig911) писал(а) в ответ на :
> Rich kids have much more chances to suffer from a depression and drug abuse.
That's madness, honestly . In the UK everyone has drug experiences (a little "dabble" I mean during the "clubbing phase" or whatever, or when people go to Amsterdam to party or to India for a gap year, whatever). Those with money are much less likely to get hooked on drugs, as they have better things to spend their money on. And if one does get hooked, it is easier for the rich to get out of it and get help - again, privately. In some gorgeous retreat somewhere. Whereas you yourself pointed out that poor blacks in Brooklyn find it harder to get help. This is where the conversation started in fact.
23:00 08.03.2017
Redhead (Expat) писал(а) в ответ на :
> > иг911 (ig911) писал(а) в ответ на сообщение:
>> Rich kids have much more chances to suffer from a depression and drug abuse.
> > That's madness, honestly . In the UK everyone has drug experiences (a little "dabble" I mean during the "clubbing phase" or whatever, or when people go to Amsterdam to party or to India for a gap year, whatever). Those with money are much less likely to get hooked on drugs, as they have better things to spend their money on. And if one does get hooked, it is easier for the rich to get out of it and get help - again, privately. In some gorgeous retreat somewhere. Whereas you yourself pointed out that poor blacks in Brooklyn find it harder to get help. This is where the conversation started in fact.
We are arguing about apples and oranges. Firs of all, situations in UK is very different compared to US. Second, we are not talking about poor blacks. We are comparing chances on a happy life (not necessarily remarkably successful) for rich kids and kids from middle class, foreign born parents.
23:04 08.03.2017
иг911 (ig911) писал(а) в ответ на :
> And in US, Ivy League Universities have 8/1 - students (kids) of foreign born parents, often immigrants.
Hardly surprising, as it is the country of immigrants by default.
иг911 (ig911) писал(а) в ответ на :
> Also, some of the highest scoring middle schools in New York - are public Chinese schools.
I agree with you on this one. But not quite. We here have a phenomenon where the Chinese do better than others in State schools, but not in private schools. In private schools class sizes are smaller - in some half of those that are in State schools. So the kids get a lot more individual tuition, attention and bespoke schooling. The quality of the schooling is higher and even in sports - the majority of our medalists come from private schools, who can afford to hire top stadiums for training, top equipment, etc. Also their school trips abroad are better and to more desirable destinations. Anyway, I digressed. The reason that the Chinese are doing better in worse conditions , i.e. - state schooling - is because of "tiger mothering". "Tiger mothering" is when a parent really pushes their kid very hard to achieve and the Chinese are just like that. With the English - the tactics are totally different. Parents are liberal, very liberal. BUT - in middle class and upwards - parents treat their kids almost like adults - they are ultra polite, never raise their voice, but there are consequences for a kid - a withdrawal of privileges (pocket money, etc.), grounding - you can't go out , etc. So - to start off the English kids do worse than the Chinese in state schools, but then they catch up . But they (the English kids) become much more well rounded adults as a result of liberal upbringing.
> Firs of all, situations in UK is very different compared to US. > Second, we are not talking about poor blacks. > We are comparing chances on a happy life (not necessarily remarkably successful) for rich kids and kids from middle class, foreign born parents.
Oh, I see. I didn't understand, sorry. I think the best mix is one native parent, one immigrant - like our family. But then I am biased , as I love our family. Sorry, I really got to go now, family calls.
>> And in US, Ivy League Universities have 8/1 - students (kids) of foreign born parents, often immigrants.
>Hardly surprising, as it is the country of immigrants by default. >
> иг911 (ig911) писал(а) в ответ на сообщение:
>> Also, some of the highest scoring middle schools in New York - are public Chinese schools.
> > I agree with you on this one. But not quite. We here have a phenomenon where the Chinese do better than others in State schools, but not in private schools. In private schools class sizes are smaller - in some half of those that are in State schools. So the kids get a lot more individual tuition, attention and bespoke schooling. The quality of the schooling is higher and even in sports - the majority of our medalists come from private schools, who can afford to hire top stadiums for training, top equipment, etc. Also their school trips abroad are better and to more desirable destinations. Anyway, I digressed. > The reason that the Chinese are doing better in worse conditions , i.e. - state schooling - is because of "tiger mothering". "Tiger mothering" is when a parent really pushes their kid very hard to achieve and the Chinese are just like that. With the English - the tactics are totally different. Parents are liberal, very liberal. BUT - in middle class and upwards - parents treat their kids almost like adults - they are ultra polite, never raise their voice, but there are consequences for a kid - a withdrawal of privileges (pocket money, etc.), grounding - you can't go out , etc. So - to start off the English kids do worse than the Chinese in state schools, but then they catch up . But they (the English kids) become much more well rounded adults as a result of liberal upbringing.
I agree with most of what you just said. My own philosophy, for everything good we get (as a present) in life you have to pay with equal amount of "bad". This is why a price tag for "good life" for rich kids is higher and not everyone can handle it.
. In the UK everyone has drug experiences (a little "dabble" I mean during the "clubbing phase" or whatever, or when people go to Amsterdam to party or to India for a gap year, whatever). Those with money are much less likely to get hooked on drugs, as they have better things to spend their money on. And if one does get hooked, it is easier for the rich to get out of it and get help - again, privately. In some gorgeous retreat somewhere. Whereas you yourself pointed out that poor blacks in Brooklyn find it harder to get help. This is where the conversation started in fact.
